Voddie Baucham and Scott Kluesendorf: Should Christians be incrementalists re. abortion?

Episode 1555

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12 Responses to Voddie Baucham and Scott Kluesendorf: Should Christians be incrementalists re. abortion?

  1. Truth2Freedom says:

    Reblogged this on Truth2Freedom's Blog.

  2. SLIMJIM says:

    Wow great to see these men speak on this; and also to see Paul Washer and James White in the same table together!

  3. Sarah says:

    Heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. How can men who think rightly in other matters endorse (or even APPEAR to endorse) such a heinous transgression as compromise with child-sacrifice? That’s all incrementalism is. It’s just conceding the lives of SOME children to be taken in hopes of saving some other children. It’s trafficking and trading in the lives of human children and it’s shameful. It’s faithlessness. It’s cold-heartedness. Have you SO LITTLE LOVE for the weakest, the littlest, the most innocent among us that you would sell their lives and their bodies to death in order to (maybe) save the lives of other in hopes of (maybe) someday eventually ending abortion? I am absolutely heartbroken to see this betrayal of Christ and his children. Unspeakable. How can we really except Christ to bless a movement that denies His power and relies on man’s politically convenient strategies instead?

    The man-centered politics of the pro-life movement are sickening. The spread of the poison of pro-life politics in the Church are even more sickening. It’s well past time to throw away the foolish pride and politics of pro-lifery and adopt a truly Biblical and Evangelical, Gospel-centered, Body-of-Christ-driven, IMMEDIATIST position, reliant on Providence rather than pragmatism. Reliant on God rather than man. It’s time to repent of our FOOLISH and FAITHLESS incrementalism, our cruel and cold-hearted trading in the lives of human children and bearers of the Imago Dei.

    Every great evil that ever gained a foothold in society has been destroyed by the power of a mighty God and every time there has been a remnant of immediatists there to preach the Gospel and demand and the immediate end of evil in the name of the God they served. And every time there were incrementalists there to discourage and put off the end of the evil of their age in hopes of ending it gradually. Every time. They would put it off until the Second Coming if they could. Put it off and put it off forever always claiming that they’d eventually end it incrementally. Well ENOUGH. 56 million dead is too many. Incrementalism has failed for 42 years. No more.

    • Matthew Tringali says:

      Amen Sarah! Well said!

    • Juda says:

      Thank you Sarah from a rape conceived person who has seen my peers exploited to fill the pockets of those who would lose their income if abortion actually did end. BOTH sides incrementalism AND abortionists would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars!!!
      If either of these men had THEIR own lives offered for sacrifice I dare say they would have a much different opinion!!!

      I say give a liver or blood or a kidney to save lives but NO ONE has the right to say that people like me are not going to be protected and are going to be offered up as a sacrificial negotiating tool to those who pretend to be changing laws. Every law has a loophole that allows for abortion! Working with moms pregnant after rape with choices4life.org I have been told that abortionists are pushing women to “hurry and get it done before the 20 week ban.” So what good does that do??

      Legal abortion started in MS in 1966.The ONLY reason was to kill people like me!! Our mothers WANT us but society keeps pushing our mothers to abort. THAT is a crime in itself. Incrementalism promotes rapists in that they are not caught when the evidence is killed!

      People who are truly following Christ will leave NO unborn to be killed.

  4. Sarah says:

    Please consider watching this response.

  5. womenspeakingforwomen says:

    Mr. Kluesendorf, what would you say to the survivors of rape and incest? Those that were conceived from these horrific acts against their mothers? Those that are alive today, would you and could you look at them and tell them that it would have been fine to exempt them from a pro-life bill, and calling them exceptions, for the good of progressing? I think not, I don’t think you would be able to look them in the eyes and tell them that it would be better to use them as pawns to get a few saved. I would encourage you to stop thinking in your own understanding and seek to share the truth on God’s heart for children. For if you did, you could never pick some children over others. God help us in this nation.

  6. Shawn Viland says:

    Mr. Klusendorf teaches that we need to be “reasonable” and find common ground with abortion rights supporters. His organization, “Life Training Institute,” teaches that abortion is not techincally murder in legal terms, and that some may be permissible.

    He is among those who try to poison the well against those who have repented of compromise and obey the call immediate and total abolition.

    “(Abolition of slavery) should teach them never to persist in the support of evils, through the false shame of being obliged to confess that they had once given them their sanction, nor to delay the cure of them because, politically speaking, neither this nor that is the proper season; but to DO THEM AWAY INSTANTLY, as there can only be one fit or proper time in the eye of religion, namely, ON THE CONVICTION OF THEIR EXISTENCE.” – Abolitionist Thomas Clarkson, The History of the Rise, Progress and Accomplishment of the Abolition of the African Slave Trade by the British Parliament (1808), Vol. I

  7. Don Cooper says:

    It was one of Scott Klusendorf’s lectures that was key tool used in waking me up as a Christian sleeping through the abortion holocaust and to that I am very grateful to him. In fact there are several pro-life leaders that I believe have done great things in opposing the evil of abortion and calling other Christians to see their obligation to love their unborn neighbor by actually doing something to something to oppose the evil of their age.

    However I do belive that the support of incremental legislation is a great evil and that Scott and the majority fo the pro-life leaders are seriously mistaken in their support of such legislation.

    There are several problems with incrementalism. One is that there is a great underestimation of the damage done by condoning and participating in such a compromise. Even if a pro-life person does not actually believe that an incremental bill is righteous, a tacit and/or overt endorsement of such a bill sends a confusing message to the world that is already grossly confused on abortion.

    Most of us know how often people say they are against abortion except in cases of rape and incest. Should it be any surprise to us at all when the very movement that is suppose to be against abortion also backs and supports this notion? All these years of endorsing candidates and proposinng bills that unabashadley hold up the “rape/incest exception” as a “pro-life” position has born fruit of a culture that believes that abortion ought to be permitted in some circumstances. The pro-life movement has by its own doing told the world that either abortion really doesn’t kill a baby OR that they really don’t take their view seriously.

    As Christians we have a simple calling. The fear God and obey His commandments. We are to folloow the example of the prophets, apostles and Jesus before us who never compromised with evil that some good may come. Why is it the pro-life movement believes we have our hands tied to only get a deal as much as the devil will let us? Let the pagan politician do that. Let the pragmatist legislator act that way. But let us call them to always repent and never ever agree with them.

    Imagine for a moment if the people of God, who claim the name of Christ, no longer agreed to such an evil statetment such “killing children is wrong EXCEPT when that child has a rapist for a fatther”. Imagine if we instead trusted fully in God, proclaimed the truth as prophets filled by His holy Spirit, and said child sacrifice is murder and it ought NOT EVER be allowed by a just government.

    Imageine for a moment that the only canidates we would endorse would be those who know God and fear His commandments without compromise and that we would only vote for those who call abortion wrong in all cases.

    You see pro-life leaders would have you believe that this is a fantasy. But this is a lie. Or it is their lack fo faith put on you. It is not a fantasy. The paradigm is defined by them. Scott Klusendorf and LTI could today publicly proclaim abortion wrong in ALL cases AND behave as such by only endorssing and backing legislation, candidates, curiclulm, etc. that are consistent with such. It is their choice to concede with Moloch that he can kill some children now. This is obviously wrong not only from a biblical perspective but also makes no sense in how we should teach and persuade the unsaved and lost.

    The pro-life leaders want to define the reality as it being completely impractical to hold a non-comprromising position. They want to say first that it is not inconsistent with the beliefs and behavior of the heroes of faith going back to the Old Testament prophets. They want to also say that backing and tolerating the idea that you can do a little evil to bring about good, will actually bring an evil to its end. But let’s be really honest here people. Let’s think critically about this. What evidence do they have for this? Nowhere do our prophets, apostles or Jesus compromise in any way with evil. Nowhere do we ever see the idea that it’s okay to do evil that good may come. AND tthere is no evidence after 42 years of pro-life ideas dominating the mainstream of anti-abortion work, that abortion has been restricted or come closer to being abolished in any signficant way.

    Abortion on demand remains engrained in our culture. If we consider surgical AND chemical child kkilling methods abortion is being practiced by far more than ever. Of course there has been some ggood done but only at the expense of deceiving us that compromising with evil is somehow okay aand will bring abortion to an end. There are moves in chess that are intended to make an opponennt think he is winning when in reality he has already lossed. There are tactics in physical fighting to allow your opponent some room to believe he is making progress when in reality he is deefeated. In fact, it is a far worse condition to think you are winning win you are actually losing.

    IIt is my prayer that the men like Vodie and Scott would see the truth here. I believe it would be an aawesome thing to see one of these guys admit they were wrong on this and today say without shaame, I will forsake the pragmatism of man, I will believe fully in the power of God and His word, aand from now I will never send a confusing message to the world that any compromise with child kkilling is tolerable.

  8. Dick Maxwell says:

    I can not with a clear conscience, which has by the way been resuscitated by God’s Word and Spirit, I cannot in good conscience or in faithfulness to God tolerate any bill which allows preborn children to be murdered.

    Faith without works is dead (James 2:26). The “work” that makes our faith alive is obedience in the face of fear. Obedience in the safety of your fellow congregants is nothing, even sinners do that. That’s why when I was in the world, I drank in a bar. True living faith will take you out of your comfort bubble and have you obeying beyond your abilities where you absolutely must depend upon God. Faith without works, or dead faith then, is a symptom of cowardice. I can say that quite freely because I can also say that not too many years ago I was a very white washed coward standing along side many Bible believing, book buying, evangelizing, praising Jesus, Christians. It was through facing my own cowardice and obeying my Lord to bring the Gospel into conflict with the evil of our age that I found a vibrant faith and true manhood. I know where I was and I can see a lot of Christians still there and it grieves me. I am burdened for the Bride, that she would rise up in the glory that is hers. It is only in rising into that glory through resurrection obedience that we can find the unity which has eluded Christianity in our nation for so many years (John 17:20-23). As long as we fear man however, obedience will evade us and unity, which is the fruit of obedience, will never come about and the Bride will hide in shame (John 5:41-45). If all Christians did not fear those who stand for abortion, we would all be immediatists. We would not stand for compromise laws which allow for the murder of all babies under 20 weeks or which allow baby murder after a 24 hour wait (Proverbs 29:25). Alas, our faith is weak and our fear of man is great. It is only when one is intimidated that one will “take the deal.”

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